On May 15th Pastor Peter Simpson was in discussion with Jonathan Vernon-Smith, the presenter of the JVS Show on BBC Three Counties Radio, concerning the recent statement of the US media personality, Jameela Jamil, that her abortion represented the best decision which she had ever made.
The following is a transcript of the debate on this subject. JVS = Jonathan Vernon-Smith. PS = Pastor Peter Simpson.
JVS : So, this television presenter and actress, Jamila Jameel, says that abortion is sometimes the best thing. How do you respond to that?
PS : Well, I find it shocking. I think it’s indicative of how far our society has gone away from Christian values … abortion is destruction of human life. The Bible makes it very clear that life begins at conception, particularly if you read Psalm 139.
JVS : A lot of us are not very religious; so to be honest, your quoting Psalms is not going to endear you or your comments to many of my listeners.
PS : They are most welcome after hearing the broadcast, to go and look up that psalm, because it will really surprise them. God has ordained the existence of every single one of us and it is he who fashions us …
JVS : A lot of people don’t believe in God; Peter. So if you don’t believe in God … then of course your feelings on abortion will be somewhat different, won’t they?
PS : Yes, the problem is that people have rejected God! … My saying this is in order to try and … get young women from being plagued with guilt for the rest of their lives.
JVS : But as you’ve just heard, some women are not plagued with guilt for the rest of their lives. There are women who have felt that (abortion) is a positive thing, that it was … the best decision they’ve ever made, because it would have been wrong to bring a baby into the world at a time when they didn’t want that baby for a variety of reasons … For you, as a man, to start telling them they should feel bad about the decision they’ve made, there may be some women who are very angry about that, Peter.
PS : Well of course it is not an issue of feminism. It’s an issue of right and wrong. And, yes, there may be people who have become so hard-hearted and so insensitive to the destruction of human life that they are able to brazen it out and say things like, It is the best thing I ever did. But … how would they like to have been aborted? … Abortion is the destruction of life which God has brought into being.
JVS : If you had been aborted you would not have existed … so you wouldn’t have an opinion, would you?
PS : Isn’t there a right to life? … Doesn’t that child in the womb have a right to to exist?
JVS : According to whom?
PS : God.
JVS : What about the right of the mother?
PS : The mother had every right to choose before she got into bed with someone.
JVS : Oh, and what about if the woman was raped?
PS : Most abortions have nothing to do with rape whatsoever. About 99.5% of abortions are … not for rape. So rape is a red herring.
JVS : It’s not a red herring.
PS : Even in the situation of rape you don’t cover one wrongdoing by another wrongdoing.
JVS : Just put yourself in the position, Peter, of being a young girl who is raped by a horrible predatory man … would you want to have his baby?
PS : I would not want to be guilty of destroying human life.
JVS : Would you want to have his baby? … You can’t really put yourself in the position and isn’t that why you’re wrong?
PS : The rape argument is an absolute red herring, because the vast proportion of abortions are not for that reason. So come on, let’s get real.
JVS : So women who have an abortion should never look at it positively. They should think of it as murder?
PS : Exactly. Can you imagine, years on, the guilt of a woman – “I destroyed my own child”? I want to protect women from that.
JVS : You want those women to feel like that, Peter, I can hear it in your voice … you want women to feel bad.
PS : Don’t you think people should feel bad about murder?
JVS : I think it’s up to the individual woman to decide for herself what is right.
PS : So you think it’s a human right to commit murder?
JVS : Well, it depends if you consider it to be murder … there are lots of people that disagree with you that it is murder.
PS : Is it human life in the womb or not?
JVS : Well of course human life begins in the womb, but the law determines in this country at what point you are allowed to have an abortion … the law of the land will have been formulated with consultation with doctors, with people who know about this kind of thing from a medical perspective … They are the ones that make the decisions.
PS : But the law of the land stinks.
JVS : According to whom?
PS : According to the Word of God.
JVS : No, according to you … Peter Simpson … the law of the land stinks, but there are lots of other people listening to this program, who will be Christian, who don’t think the law of the land stinks.
PS : So you are justifying the destruction of human life?
JVS : I’m not justifying anything. I’m saying to you, The law of the land in this country allows abortion up to 24 weeks.
PS : Yes, and the law came in in 1967 at the height of the permissive society. Is that a coincidence?
JVS : So … any woman who’s had an abortion you feel should be ashamed of themselves?
PS : Yes, and they should come to the Lord Jesus Christ for mercy and He will forgive them.